the one thing -- and, you know, not -- >> charlie: including carter, clinton and obama? >> everybody. bush, everybody. whether it's two-party talks, six-party talks. >> charlie: failed. and part of it is rational people trying to deal with crazies. >> charlie: and the chinese, too, is an element to it. they've got a lot to lose. >> the chinese have been less helpful than they could be. they have a strong interest in getting the issue dealt with. but here's the thing that's always struck me, the north koreans talk all the time about the fact that we're still technically at war with them, legally at war with them, because all we did was sign an arms agreement not a peace treaty. and during the periods where the negotiations were active, they kept saying why won't you declare you're not at war with us? and we say, you know, the usual thing, what you're taught as a diplomat or any kind of negotiator, it's a bargaining chip and we're holding the chip and of course we don't think we're at war with you. my view is bargaining chips you don't get to spend are not worth anything.